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Interview With Rand Fishkin From Moz: Marketing, Conferences & SEO - Inbound After Hours - Ep. 15

Written by Rikki Lear

25 | 10 | 17

SEO  |  
15 minute read

When we started Inbound After Hours, we had a chat about all the amazing people we could get on the show. This week we are delighted that the person on the very top of that list is on the show, Rand Fishkin (Founder and Former CEO of Moz).

We chatted to Rand at the Inbound conference in Boston and about his experiences selling, and marketing Moz when it was an agency versus now as a SaaS company, why he speaks at events, what the major SEO talking points are today, what's next for Rand and much more.

This might just be our best episode to date, watch or listen below to our interview with Rand Fishkin...






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Full transcript:

- Everyone, welcome to Inbound After Hours today we have a superstar on the show. We have Rand Fishkin. We've all been really looking forward to meeting you. We were quite nervous as well. Paul's even nervous now. We've been following you for years every Friday. We get outings to watch you right on Fridays so it's pretty nerve wracking for us. So thank you.

- I am surprisingly unintimidating.

- How funny is that? We all just went 'sigh.'

- I'm slightly shorter than average I have very tiny shoulders. You have nothing to worry about.

- Just for the viewers who don't know, Rand is obviously the co-founder and former CEO of a company and that's your company called Moz. You're also co-founder of inbound.org.  You've written a couple of books which we'll chat about later. And you are the host of Whiteboard Friday.

- Yes.

- We see you every Friday in our office.

- Oh, terrific. - So um, yeah again. I'm sure everyone does know you but Rand. What's your story?

- Yeah, well, let's see. I - you know - dropped out of college like a lot of entrepreneurs and started working with my mom. I think mom and son start up is probably the least venture-backable startup combination out there but it worked out for us. We started as a consultancy and we're an SEO and then we pivoted into software. Really had no idea. We had no idea what software subscriptions or software as a service were like. But, what we found was, there was a huge amount of demand and a dearth of providers so we managed to sort of build a very successful business for 7 years as a software company. Moz had 100% year over year growth. Today it's growing much slower but is about a $45 million a year business.

- How have you found market in the software company from the console business back in the day?

- It is totally different but vastly preferable. At least for me personally, so you know my ... I intensely dislike sales, like I don't like selling people on ideas or services or products. I hate the, I don't know, the transactional nature of the relationships that form. If you and I hang out I want us to hang out because we actually enjoy each other's company and we have stuff we wanna talk about and share and we wanna think about together and we share values and philosophy. As opposed to "Well, let me see what angle I need to take with this guy in order to try to sell him a product." I mean, I despise that.

- And as CEO did you end up going into that sales role just naturally start picking out what people consume.

- Yeah, right. So, first off, when we were a consultancy - my mom was CEO. I became CEO when we turned software. But also I was doing a lot of the sales 'cause I was the SEO person, right.

- Conflict to market, isn't it, we've all been there - Sounds familiar. - Yeah, we've got a similar sort of ... As you get bigger you need to focus more on sales, who's gonna do it, one of you guys, and we're all marketers aren't we? Exactly, it is uncomfortable.

- Yeah, so what I love. What I love about the software business - well what I love about the self-service software business it that you essentially get to help people and then they reward you with their business if they love the help that you're providing. So, Moz was about educating people; it was about uncovering all these mysteries and secrets that Google and the other search engines held. It was about sharing things openly that many other, especially in the early days, that many other consultants and businesses and people in the SEO world didn't want shared. They thought "No, no, this is my unique value. I don't wanna share that, that'll make me redundant." And by opening up about that stuff ... Well, we pissed a lot of people off. If no ones angry you're probably not doing anything important. But we earned a big audience and following. And then that audience turned out to be exactly the right customers for what we were building software-wise.

- That's fantastic, yeah. - So you got into video quite early, and ...

- I guess we did, yeah.

- I guess most people know you from Whiteboard Fridays. What drove you down that path?

- Well, it's an interesting one. I'm gonna be talking about it a little tomorrow at my Inbound talk here. But Whiteboard Friday was a total fluke. Much like our software business, right, total fluke.

- You're not giving yourself any credit.

- Sometimes you do things that you like and you find a business model that can wrap itself around that enjoyment and that passion. And I actually love that model. I think that's far more than "Well, I went to business school, I got an MBA, and I saw this underserved market where I thought I could make a lot of money" and that's like the world of investment banking. I kinda hate that, right? That's like totally uninteresting to me. But I'm incredibly passionate about sharing my knowledge with other people. And so one of my coworkers grabbed a camera we had ordered for, I can't even remember what we had it for ... But it was an early video camera, he took an early video. I think we put it up using YouTube Maybe not even, it was like 2007, so right around when YouTube was getting there. And the quality was crap, it was our least successful blog post in weeks, like it didn't do well at all. The next week we decided to do it again even though it hadn't worked and we kept with it until probably about a year, two years in we started getting better at it and it earned a following. So if you were watching Whiteboard Friday the first two years you guys would be sitting around like, "Well, there's that Rand guy and remember that terrible video he made, what was he thinking?" But now I think that's one of the true challenges of content marketers and marketers who invest in organic channels overall. 'Cause you start out with a lot of low ROI, poor performing efforts, and then over time you get better at it. And, unfortunately many marketers and CMO's and executive teams are trained to think of marketing as "Hey, if I put a dollar in, I better get $1.20 out, or hopefully $1.50 or $2.00 and our kind of marketing, organic channels like SEO and social media and content marketing and PR, very frankly, are the opposite of that. You put a ton of dollars in, you don't even get one dollar out for months and months until you start to get good at it, and then what you find is, not only do you get good at it, but you get so good that your cost to acquire customers through those channels is incredibly low. And the lifetime value of those customers is vastly higher than what it would be if they came through paid channels.

- We talk a lot about the compound and the effect of Inbound in general and videos the same is that they're still be people watching Whiteboard Friday from four or five years ago.

- Well and here's the crazy part, this is the reason I think we stuck with it after the first few episodes had bombed, which was we noticed that the audience that did engage with it had brand recognition and brand affinity in ways that people who just read a blog post, even 3 or 4 blog posts, didn't have. And I think video has this unique power to create a brand and to amplify and message that is not necessary the strongest in terms of raw reach, but is incredibly strong and maybe even the strongest of the content channels in terms of engagement. Right, like, I think it's because we all grow up watching people on video and on television and in movies. And we get this association like "Oh, if you're on the screen, you must be important, you must be credible." And if I stick with it, maybe the YouTube generations that have grown up with YouTube, that may change a little bit for them, right, it may not be that case. For folks who are in their late 20's to late 90's right now, they have that strong association that like 'important' 'video' you must be credible.

- It's a bit more passive as well, isn't it? So it's a lot easier to consume for a lot of people.

- Yeah, I think that's true too. Well and you know with Whiteboard Friday it was one of those like, we were fine, it got better. We found that 20 minute episodes, 25 minute episodes, really didn't work. We also found that sub 3 or 4 minute episodes really didn't work. And we have this sweet spot between about 5 minutes and 12 minutes where, to your point, every Friday at lunch or at the office a group of marketers can sit around and watch it and then reflect and have conversation and eat lunch or whatever it is that they do. And so we basically took that time that you might normally spend reading a blog post, and if we could get inside that time frame we knew it would work.

- I think the brand affinity has been quite, when you started out the video journey, I've noticed a difference in the sales process as well, 'cause I feel like people know us a little bit. So by the time I get to their office to speak to them, they know whether they're gonna like me or not. Hopefully they're not inviting me there if they're not going to like me. But they have a feel for the co-chair and whether we're gonna work together. I've found that quite good in our sales process. I think that's helped a lot.  I love that ability to almost introduce yourself in a scalable way and say ... If you watch Whiteboard Friday, you're gonna know that Rand and Moz have sort of a particular outlook on the world. You're gonna get a sense of the values of the company and of the person. You're gonna know that we don't take ourselves too seriously and that I never put on a suit and tie, right. But you know, I'm also not like Mark Zuckerberg where I think I'm so important that I'm just gonna wear the same grey t-shirt every day.

- I'm gonna make all the women in my company wear fancy outfits.

- Right? Sheryl Samberg has to wear like thousands of dollars of clothing everyday to be professional and to fit in to her environment and Zuckerberg is like "Screw you, I don't respect anybody except me."

- We're kind of on our video journey now and you being here, we found it really difficult in the early days, with some of the kit we have and some of our first videos weren't too professional.

- I can remember the first one. It didn't record on the first podcast.

- We were tens. We were nervous, and what's your preparation tips for videoing? Do you just turn on and you naturally just go for it now, or do you got a series of steps?

- I mean one thing I really advise is if you can avoid doing live video and give yourself time and practise to take, to do multiple takes. That's a really wonderful thing, right?

- Yeah.

- One thing I think you will absolutely notice is that if you get an actor in a live situation it's not the same. They don't have the polish and the crispness and the flawless delivery and the absolutely perfect skin and hair and clothing, right? Every scene looks phenomenal. But, this is one of the great things about video is that you can spend the time to polish it up as much as you'd like. And one thing we definitely observe ... For me I've done a ton of Whiteboard Fridays, right? I do, I think I've only in history had 3 where I did a take 2.

- That's good.

- For me, it, I don't know, I'm relatively good at it, I'm a natural, whatever. And I also don't care if I screw up. If I screw up I'll just make fun of myself right in front of the video and it's fine. But it's really engaging for folks actually.

- That's a good tip.

- But for a lot of our guest folks who come in and do Whiteboard Fridays ... We have lots of SEO people come to Seattle and if we can get them into the office we will. And for many of them it's take 2 or take 3 where they really deliver it with that polish and that perfection. I think that's what's great about video.

- I mean we're under a lot of pressure to do live video at the minute. I think we've tried it on Facebook. We went to pot a little bit; we got really nervous knowing that there was barely 4 people actually watching it on Facebook live. And it wasn't til afterward when it got a bit attraction. I think the mindset of being live - we just went to pieces.

- I wasn't going to say, we don't do second takes so it's the same if it's live or not for us. But it's just knowing you're live and you don't have that ability to ... We don't say to clients, "Look, if you come in to do a video and it's bad we'll just delete it and do it again."

- Exactly.

- Yeah just having that mindset when it was on Facebook live we were all just a little bit ...

- Reminded me of last time we didn't fluff the opening. - Yeah. You usually do. - I think it's just repetition, yeah.

- I'm sorry, I don't think I'm totally familiar with that verb. Fluff?

- Fluff, mess it up.

- Got it.

- We've got a good 15 episodes with a slightly different opening, so, we leave them in.

- We never found it as naturally as you. We make a lot of errors, fluffs as you say. I think we're 15-16 episodes in now so we're pretty relaxed. This is the first time we're out of beer actually. We usually have a beer during podcast.

- Well, yeah, there you go.

- Plus we do it after work, so it works quite well doesn't it?

- The brewery's downstairs, isn't it?

- From our office it's easy.

- We're lucky enough to have a brewery downstairs, a bar so we just bring them up. - You guys have a hard life.

- Yeah. - One thing we've noticed is you speak at a lot of conferences, you're here, there, travelling a lot. What's your motivation to do that? Because you don't have to do that now do you, in the position you're in. What motivates you to speak so much?

- Yeah, so conferences and events are hugely important for me on basically three vectors. So one is pretty obvious and that's marketing. So, essentially, getting the Moz brand out there, and being able to sort of craft and shape messages in the SEO world. So if there's something in particular that I feel very passionately about and I want people to know about and I want people to understand. Especially if it's something that our software can help them with then I like to talk about that. Usually I'll start talking about something long before our software can help people with it. And then it's really number two. And that is learning from the audience and from other speakers what they want. So being able ... This is essentially when folks talk about in startup world customer development and customer research and customer interviews and audience interviews. That is exactly what I get to do. Even with you guys here, right? So technically I suppose you're interviewing me. But I'm learning about what you do. And I'm learning about what kinds of content appeals to you, where do you struggle. Okay, live video is really tough for those guys, you know, recorded video. We should do a Whiteboard Friday that has some tip on like how do I use, or make a better recorded video that can perform well in search engines. "Oh, well it turns out what Moz does is this ..." We have this tactic where we take a video and we'll film it and we'll put it up on our own website using Wistia as the imbed. And then 3 months later we'll put it up on YouTube. Which seams really weird. Why wouldn't you put it up on YouTube? Well because we want people to subscribe to Moz and to do all the videos come out from our channel so we can own the user experience. Only later do we wanna put it on YouTube so that if someone does a search on YouTube they can find it. And then we also own two ranking spots in Google. We'll own the top one with our blog. And then the second one with YouTube. Great, now we have double coverage in SEO. So it's those kind of tactics.

- Yeah truly, I think we have a two week day. So we need to extend that.

- Yeah it seems to index okay on our site first. Like even with the shortened delay that you're talkin about it's worked well for us hasn't it? Do you think that's gonna change? Like the video in landscape on servers has changed a lot?

- I mean the big change was that Google said that no one gets to rank but us. Which I think in the European Union it would surprise me if that comes under some. Yeah, under some regulatory fire. I think sadly here in the U.S. you will not see any of that because Google is such a big lobbyist. We have legalised bribery here. It's not working out so well; I don't recommend it personally, but if you choose to go that route. I was gonna follow up on your other question that the third thing I get from conferences is networking, right? So meeting people in person, you know. Being able to say "Hi" to other entrepreneurs and other marketers, I mean. Let's say two weeks ago you emailed me and said "Hey, Rand, we put out this piece of content. We'd really love if you'd check it out and maybe share it." I get a lot of those, maybe I check it out maybe if it was absolutely incredible and totally unique I would share it. But after we've met in person your odds of getting me to share that have gone way up. And the same is true for me, right? So every person that I meet it becomes a ... You know, especially if we get along, right? Obviously if we're all hanging out and I'm like "Well, that guy is the worst." That's not as effective but those interpersonal connections are super powerful. So it's really those three. It's marketing, it's customer research, and it's networking.

- I mean our talk today, especially Brian's up for another four talks talking about mission, core mission. So what you're saying really is just add value. That's what drives you then. Giving people education, value, and that's what-

- Well and certainly learning from then as well. I don't want to have this impression that I know everything and that I, that my job is merely to share all these things that I know. I don't know, yeah, especially in SEO. I guarantee there are ten people in the SEO field on any given topic know way more than I do. Where I have been able to benefit is through the aggregation and curation of those networking ... Of those relationships and those, in some cases partnerships and in a lot of cases consuming and pointing to other peoples' content which is why my slide decks are filled with references to other people. Which is another pro tip. If I go up on stage and I go mention somebody if I've never met them before and they find out that I mentioned them. Oh my god, we are best friends, right. They will bend over backwards. They would love to sign up for Moz, right. It's a powerful amplifying ...

- It shows them another human, now doesn't it? It mentions someone and you're thinking "Oh this guy'll never get back to me." And he's like "Moz has mentioned us, let's email em and ..."

- I had a crazy experience, this was like two weeks ago. Totally outside our world, but illustrates this perfectly. So my wife and I are huge fans of the Oregon Shakespeare festival; we got married down in Ashland, Oregon nine years ago now and so we go back there for our anniversary. We go to a show, we see one of the actors from one of the shows like walking outside which is cool you know. You're in small town Oregon but it's sorta like "Oh, it's like a Broadway star."

- Yeah.

- And he's been in television and movies and stuff too. And he sort of looks at us, gives us a smile and we're like "Oh man!" So Geraldine goes on Twitter and was like "Oh you know this guy was smiling at me." And I'm like "No, no, no, he was smiling at me." Well, long story short, Twitter conversation leads to him inviting us out for drinks later. And now we're gonna go see a one-man show that's he's putting on right? So it just has that- - The nice side of Twitter then?

- Yeah, right, like the platform. The ability to mention someone in a positive way, or in a way that gets their attention can transform you from total strangers to "Come fly down and see my one-man show." Like, or whatever the equivalent of that relationship is in the professional world.

- Sorta like the good side of influence and marketing isn't it, like, you read a lot of stuff online. Kinda falsely build these relationships with people 'cause you've got an end goal and it's very transparent and comin' and doing real live stuff like conferences and events and stuff you're actually doing proper outreach and networking You don't know where it's gonna go or be used for down the line.

- You can see that falseness as well can't you? You can spot that a mile away.

- I loved reading your blog URL, yeah.

- There's also one after a talk earlier and I can't remember which one it was and probably shouldn't say what it was anyway, but it was walking out was the guy who spoke and someone had waited to go and ask a question and was saying "No, no, ask your question." And she was following him down the corridor, "So what we do is this ..." And he was just like eh and you just have to submit. - If you come in with an ask first it's not gonna go down as well is it, like you said. People asking you for shares and things. - It's weird I think the only ... There's this one environment where very hyper transactional relationships work. And it's the San Francisco Bay area. Like, tech startup world, which I despise. I hate it, it's not for me, it works for some folks. But I really dislike that sort of transactional relationship and I think that for some folks who reject that you wanna think about okay "How can I build a relationship that is founded on sort of pure doing good things?"

- Yeah.

- Right? As opposed to me benefiting and you giving me benefit and I think that ... And even better way that I've found to relationship build than the, what can you do for me and what can I do for you, I think the trade and swapping, that's like the common advice but the ... For example "Hey Rand, would you come out and do a podcast and a video filming series?" What is our goal here? We wanna help other people, other people in the marketing and business and entrepreneurial worlds. And we both have that same goal. And it benefits both of us I guess, sort of in nebulous ways but most of the benefit is for the people who watch and see. Awesome, right? That is a great mission to get me or someone ten times more important than me onto a show like this.

- Wow, great, inspirational stuff. Let's talk about - you've written two books so far. Is that correct?

- Gonna have a third one I'm writing now.

- And your third one which we have here regarding ups and downs of start up culture, is that correct, my research proving me right.

- Nailed it, nailed it.

- Okay, and do you wanna talk about that a little bit more. How far along are you with this book?

- Sure, as of last week it is considered transmitted by my publisher - so traditional publishers, I'm working with Penguin Random House, but traditional publishers have these very formal sorts of structures that they use. So transmission basically means not that the manuscript is in its absolute final form, but it means you get like your second of your three author royalties, you know down payments. Also that, you then move on from editorial to copyediting. So, it's in a good place, it's expected to be out sometime in March of next year. I don't know maybe April, something like that. The title of the book is 'Lost and Founder.'

- Lost and Founder?

- Yeah, which I think describes it pretty well. For any of you who started a company you know it fits.

- Yeah, we've been there, we've been through the pain yeah so we'll be interested to read that when that comes out. It's painful, it's painful as a starter as I'm sure you'll mention in your book.

- Yeah, I mean this is I think you know a journey that many people go through and feel very alone. And I think all of us do this incredibly foolish thing, consciously or unconsciously, incredibly foolish thing where we compare ourselves to only the most successful entrepreneurs in our field, right? It's not "Hey that guy down the street started a chips' shop" It's "How am I doing against Richard Branson?" What are you thinking, right? Why would you compare yourself against him? But that's what we do, right? And I think that's because the media focuses very much on the huge outlier successes rather than the average everyday entrepreneur. So a little bit of the book, so obviously a company that's bigger than many and has had some success but my hope was to kind of tell a, I guess what you wanna call, a middle of the road sort of start up story. Like okay Moz is $45 million a year but it's growing slowly slower than certainly venture capital investors would like. It's hit a lot of struggles and road bumps over the years, made a lot of mistakes and I think there's a lot more that you can learn from "Here are the things that I would do differently if I were to do this again" than "Here's how I had my amazing incredible multi-million dollar success."

- Yeah, so true.

- I've just been to a- sorry I interrupted you. I've just been to a talk with the partners and they have a board where they mess up and that's all they talked about. Everything that they did wrong during their journey to Diamond, and I was just like ...

- Yeah I love that.

- I'm writing this down. Of course let's not make the same mistakes, it's very similar so it, sorry- - No that's okay. It's just a really nice approach to write a book like that and have that sort of humility.

- And I think showing your vulnerability as well like empathy with people and connects with the audience.

- It's a little, you know, you pour your heart out and you have a little bit of that "Oh man, how am I gonna feel when people read this?" And know this. But yeah, hopefully it's helpful. - It will bring more people around you who think the same way you know, and that's- - I mean yeah, certainly that's a goal. You're not gonna reach the, there's a segment of- - Get rich in five minutes.

- Yeah, I will not write that book. - I think we'd miss an opportunity if we didn't talk about SEO.

- Sure.

- With you being on here, and like you say you're around the circuit. What are people talkin' about in SEO? What are the hot topics right now that people are chatting about?

- I'd say this is usually the case, there's usually sort of the here's new opportunities and here's new things that we're sort of fearful of. So on here's a bunch of things we're fearful of I think folks are scared of that Amazon is eating all of ecommerce and that people are not ... That over time people won't go to Google and explore other channels for finding goods and services and finding products and they'll just use Amazon which is pretty scary.

- Oh yeah. Both of the inlaws have been 'Just go on Amazon'

- They have new stuff on there now don't they? - When you can't get it on there, well alright I'll get it somewhere else.

- Yeah, I'm worried about that. I think that would be a bad thing for the world's economic growth and certainly for entrepreneurship and would certainly eliminate a lot of start up opportunities. It's also dangerous for search. But, that being said, Amazon search is starting to becoming interesting. Amazon only has about a one sixtieth the search volume that Google does but you know one 60th is still something. The other big fear that I hear from folks in the SEO world is around voice search. And specifically voice answers. So voice search, not particularly scary. What's the difference if you type it in or you say it? But if you get a voice answer, that is fundamentally different from a list of results that you could choose from. And SEO for voice answerers is essentially, either you're the featured snippet or you're not. And if you are the featured snippet, be prepared to get no value from that. Right, because Google's gonna give the answer that they scraped from your site without credit. So do you wanna be that answer? Or, do you wanna let one of your competitors be that answer?

- That's interesting.

- It is not a fun game. It's not just a prisoner's dilemma. It's sort of a prisoner's dilemma but no one gets let out. So those are on the fear side. On the opportunity side, certainly we've been having the conversation for a few years around the growth of serf features so not just the classic PBC and SEO results. And I've got some data I'll be sharing tomorrow about the percent of clicks and the percent of results that show all those different ones. And there's a tremendous amount of opportunity in everything from the knowledge panel to the featured snippets to images and videos and what used to be called news and is now called top story. So that's a big one. I think another big one is many SEO's talking about an emerging ranking factor, I think it's merged over the last few years and today is quite powerful, which is, it's either called searcher task satisfaction or overall searcher satisfaction and that's essentially can the searcher accomplish their task efficiently and effectively on this page verses this other page and Google's gotten so good at knowing that that many sites and pages that do a better job of it are outranking their competitors who have more links, better keyword targeting, have done all their SEO markup well, have done all their technical SEO, used schema, have clean code, all this type of stuff. And it's like "This site has done nothing right from a classic SEO perspective." "Yeah but you can do the thing you wanna do there."

- Yeah.

- Right? And you can do it better than you can over here. And so who care's if the keyword's not in the title tag? So that is shifting around a little bit. It's not overwhelming yet, but it's getting there. - It's quite interesting on Twitter whenever you put out that as a theory, all of us, that's one of the things that gets quite a lot of the bite back, isn't it?

- That's pretty funny. And then occasionally- - Just throw it out there.

- Well I think it's, what's been nice to see is that engineering folks from Google, right, folks on the search quality team have been pretty open, like "Yeah, we're doing that."

- And it's only sort of the webmaster trends analyst people who were like "No, that would be ridiculous to use that as a factor." And you have like, I'm gonna go with the people that write the code. Also I tested this and I can see it for myself so I don't believe you. - And it makes sense, like if the users get what they want.

- It is insane to imagine Google not doing it.

- No, exactly.

- Insane.

- Yeah, I can't agree more.

- Okay, so we're weary of time, so a couple of things. Where's the future then for Rand Fishkin? What's gonna happen in the next 12 months?

- Yeah, well, I'm gonna be leaving Moz.

- Okay.

- Yeah, in a few months here, which our CEO announced on the blog this summer.

- Okay.

- And yeah, not the happiest thing in the world for me. But yeah, my plan is to build a new company. It probably won't be an SEO software, I have a non-compete. But I'll probably do something in the marketing world still.

- Well great, fantastic.

- And more books?

- You know, I'm gonna see how this one goes. It's a lot of work, it's an incredible amount of work and it is also a, I feel like you need to ... Great books come from powerful experiences. So I think until I build my next thing, and really have a concrete set of experiences that I can write about, I might wait.

- What about a kid's book?

- Kid's book? That's sounds pretty lovely actually.

- Something completely different.

- Yeah, yeah, why not?

- I went to a talk this morning about writing a book and he made it sound really easy. So I sat there thinking, it's not.

- Yeah we should bomb rush that stage and, that is not the case.

- No, it didn't sound it. I was kind of taking notes and he said, he was a good guy, really energetic, I enjoyed his talk but, he started talking about going on no work and aeons to get your book, and I was like, whoa. This is a route I don't want to go on.

- I guess that's technically 'a book.'

- It's your life, I wanna get a ghost writer.

- There's a lot of talk from people out there just saying "Write a book," get the sticker that says I'm an author, and it's an influential thing.

- I mean at that point it's "I have a Twitter account." Good for you, all done, you managed to type your password twice.

- We've got two girls back at the office, Amy and Danielle, and they're massive fans of yours. Could you just give a shout out to them girls.

- Absolutely. Amy and Danielle I hope to see you at a conference sometime soon; it'd be great to meet you.

- Awesome. Great stuff, that will make their day.

- Okay, well thank you so much.

- My pleasure.

- We'll come and see you tomorrow anyway, so best of luck and absolutely brilliant, okay?

- Thanks guys. Thanks, yeah.

- Take care.

- Take care guys, and don't forget to buy Rand's book when it comes out, okay?

- We don't normally do plugs, that was good.

- Alright, bye guys.